From the U.S. Government Accountability Office, www.gao.gov

Transcript for: Watchdog Report: Explosives Detection for U.S. Commuter
Rails

Audio interview by GAO staff with Dave Maurer, Director, Homeland
Security and Justice

Associated Report Number: GAO-10-898, Technology Assessment: Explosives
Detection Technologies to Protect Passenger Rail

Released on: July 28, 2010

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[ Narrator: ] Welcome to GAO's Watch Dog Report, your source for news
and information from the Government Accountability Office. It's July 28,
2010. Everyday millions of people rely on U.S. passenger rail systems
for efficient, reliable, and safe transportation. Recent acts of
terrorism on passenger trains abroad have prompted further exploration
of rail security measures here at home. These security measures include
explosive detection technologies. A group led by Dave Maurer, a Director
in GAO's Homeland Security and Justice team, recently assessed the
availability and effectiveness of explosives detection technologies for
use in securing passenger rail systems. GAO's Scott Golden sat down with
Dave to learn more.

[ Scott Golden: ] Can you give us a little background about the
importance of passenger rail security and in particular explosives
detection?

[ Dave Maurer: ] Here in the U.S. about 14 million people a day use
passenger rail as part of their normal transportation. Typically
commuters, they have an expectation that they are going to have fast,
reliable, and safe transportation. We know from experiences overseas
that passenger rail has been a target of terrorists attacks. Fortunately
it hasn't happened here in the United States yet but it has been a
target for terrorists. We know there have been cases here in the U.S.
where the FBI has investigated and prosecuted people with plans for
attacking passenger rail. So it's important to be able to have processes
and technologies in place that can detect explosives to avoid some of
the tragedies that have happened overseas.

[ Scott Golden: ] What explosives detection technologies are currently
available or in development?

[ Dave Maurer: ] One of the explosive detection technologies we looked
at is explosive trace detection that's been around for several years.
It's being used in some transit systems now. It's essentially different
technologies for swabbing on people or on bags to detect traces of
explosive residue. Another type of technology that could be used in the
rail environment, although it hasn't been adapted yet, are the x-ray
baggage detective systems that people are more typically used to seeing
in the air environment. A third one is what was known as explosive trace
portals which is a technology for blowing, essentially blowing air on
people and sniffing out whether or not they have explosive residue on
their clothing. A fourth technology is advanced imaging technology, or
AIT. This is a technology that basically looks at what's underneath
people's clothing to see if they are carrying bombs or explosives or
other contraband. It's currently being used and tested again in the air
environment and there's some plans for adapting its use in the rail
environment. There are a lot of privacy concerns on how best to adapt
that, but that's something that is currently being worked out. A fifth
technology that's a little further off from actual use is stand off
technology, which uses a variety of mechanisms to be able to detect
whether or not someone is carrying an explosive or other kind of
potentially harmful device at a safe distance. These are still more in
the development stage. They are not actually being used in the rail
environment, but that's up and coming technology. The sixth technology
is actually the one that's been used most frequently and for the longest
in the rail environment and that's bomb-sniffing dogs. When we met with
rail operators, we found out that this is the most widely used
technology being used today.

[ Scott Golden: ] How effective are these various technologies at
actually detecting explosives?

[ Dave Maurer: ] They vary depending on the conditions, depending on the
operator themselves, and depending on what they're actually looking for.
Many, if not most, of them have been adapted for use in the air
environment. So they've been developed for the clean controlled
atmosphere of an airport.  Trying to take a technology that's in that
environment and adapting it to the rail environment is often very
challenging.

[ Scott Golden: ] Can you discuss the relationship between the federal
government and the rail operators in maintaining security?

[ Dave Maurer: ] In the air environment, the federal government
essentially owns and operates the entire system; that's not the case
when you're talking about security of the rail system. At the end of the
day, most of the day-to-day safety and security responsibility rests
with local and state authorities.

[ Scott Golden: ] What policy considerations for implementing explosive
detection technologies does GAO raise in this report?

[ Dave Maurer: ] First and foremost was the use that we just spoke
about, which is the shared responsibility. A second policy consideration
is risk management. With limited resources, you have to make judicious
decisions about deploying technologies and spending money. The third
concept that's important for deciding what technologies to use is
considering that technology is just one of many layers of security.
Technology, in and of itself, is not going to be a silver bullet.
Another key consideration is developing a concept of operations. Let's
say there is wonderful new technology that's available tomorrow, ready
for deployment, transit operators still have to figure out how it's
going to be used in the real world.

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[ Narrator: ] To learn more, visit GAO's Web site at gao.gov, and be
sure to tune in to the next edition of GAO's Watchdog Report for more
from the congressional watchdog, the Government Accountability Office.